Hello Rebels, welcome back to The Rebel Author Podcast episode 18. Today’s podcast is with J Thorn all about how to structure a novel.
This week’s question is:
What’s your favorite podcast? Hit me with your faves, drop links, give them some love.
ANNOUNCEMENT
Don’t forget I’m joining Jenna Moreci and Meg LaTorre on the iWriterly YouTube channel TONIGHT (March 4th2020 at 3:00 pm EST) (8pm GMT) for a live stream all about how to plan a book launch. Mark your calendars you don’t want to miss this.
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Book recommendation this week is J’s new book Three Story Method
Kobo: https://www.kobo.com/ebook/three-story-method
Amazon UK: https://amzn.to/2Ttm87w
Amazon USA: https://amzn.to/2VA2sBM
Listener Rebel of the Week is Katie Forrest
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How to Structure a Novel
Find out more about J on his website theauthorlife.com
Listen to:
Sacha Black
Hello and welcome back to The Rebel Author Podcast. Today I am joined by Jay Thorne. Jay has published 2 million words and has sold more than 185,000 books worldwide. He is an official member of the science fiction and fantasy Writers of America, the horror Writers Association and the Great Lakes association of horror writers forum and a BA in American history from the University of Pittsburgh and an MA from Duquesne University. He is a full time writer, part time professor at John Carroll University, co owner of Multan universe media podcaster FM radio DJ musician and I satified story grid nut. Welcome.
J Thorn
Thank you, Sacha.
Sacha Black
Thank you so much for coming on. I am trying to maintain an air of cool But I just wanted to say, for anybody listening, J has like a gazillion podcasts. And they are all exceptionally brilliant. I think I listened to at least three or four of them. And so before we start, let’s just share all of your amazing podcasts and you want to tell everybody what they are?
J Thorn
Alright the one, the one I do myself, it’s more monthly. It’s called The Author Life. And that’s sort of a long form essay style podcast episode. And then I have three that I do with other people. So I have the author podcast that I do with Zach Zach Bohannon and he was on your show. Yeah. And I do the writer as well with my good friend Rachael Herron. And I just started one well just started I guess a few months ago with JD Barker called writers Inc. That’s the newest one and that is an interview format podcast.
Sacha Black
Yes. And I think we we we probably have to mention your your slam dunk home run of a guest last week go on tell everyone.
J Thorn
I think you’re talking about Mr. James Patterson.
Sacha Black
Oh, yes. I might be. Yeah. Oh, gee, when I heard you had James Patterson on your podcast, I was like, Whoa, like amazing and I have listened. And yeah, everybody needs to not stop what they’re today. But after you finish listening, go listen to all of the podcasts because I am a huge fan of them all.
J Thorn
And I have to give credit to JD he is a he’s fearless. He’s the guy who asks people to come on the writers Inc. and he is absolutely fearless. He will ask anyone and anyone he wants to be on he will ask and so many of them say yes.
Sacha Black
It’s like on a scale of like one to shitting yourself. Where were you on this?
J Thorn
I there was… I don’t know like, I don’t know if you could hear in the interview. There are a few moments. I just started tripping on my myself and I had to just say, like, just shut up and let him talk. Just, Just shut up and let them talk because I was starting to get the panic. And the guy’s been through a handful of interviews. And he and he totally took charge. And I was just like, I took my hands off the wheel. I’m like, Alright, Patterson, you drive. I can’t, you know, it was it was intimidating. And he’s a great guy. And and it was a fantastic interview, and I’m really grateful that he took the time to do it. But for me as an interviewer and a podcaster. I finished that I told JD I’m like, I kind of feel like I don’t need anybody else after that.
Sacha Black
Yeah. There is literally nothing. I don’t think there’s anyone Well, maybe JK Rowling just just from my perspective, because it was such a huge, the books were out. I was almost the same age as Harry Potter as the effects were coming out. So for me, they’re kind of you know, but yeah, oh my god. Like Sarah say James Patterson. Let’s talk about what we’re here to talk about. So first of all, for anybody who doesn’t know who you are, and who the hell are these people? Can you please tell everybody a little bit more about you, your journey and you know, your books were and how you got to where you are now?
J Thorn
Yeah, I don’t quite know. So I’ll do my best is a lot of it’s a mystery to me as well. But I give you the the bullet point version is I started, I published my first book, The KDP in 2009. So it was just just prior to what became known as the Kindle Gold Rush. And so I just had a sort of a 10 year anniversary as far as publishing goes, I left my full time teaching job in 2017. So it took me about eight years or so, to get to the point to I was ready to do that, although technically wasn’t ready. I don’t know why my wife didn’t divorce me, but I was making about $200 a month in royalties. I had two teenagers, two kids in private school, a mortgage and a wife and I quit my salary job, and which is not good advice and not the thing you should do. But that’s what I did. And, and I think part of that now is I consider myself sort of an author and a teacher for at least a year. So after I left, I wanted nothing to do with teaching. And now I’ve come back around and I’m sort of applying my skill set as an author to help other authors and it’s a whole different kind of teaching, and just totally loving it now.
Sacha Black
It’s so funny how so many of the things that we hate about our prior lives end up coming back to us like I used to do project management. And as much as I really desperately hard to rebel against, though, that you know, those skills or those systems or structures that I had in place that I can’t seem to quite let go fully and, you know, those structures of skills keep coming back in and it infuriates me. So you are about to launch a book called three story method. Is that is that the full title? What’s the full title?
J Thorn
It’s not the full title. But I don’t think we’ve nailed down the full title yet. So that something about fundamentals of fiction, I should probably know what that is. Yeah, three story method we can go that’s that safe. I know that for sure.
Sacha Black
Okay. Super. Can you tell everyone a little bit about the concept behind the book and what inspired you to write it?
J Thorn
Yeah. The process of creating fiction is something that I’ve been working on for a decade and when Zach and I got together, Zach came into the industry about around 2014 I think he was about five years after me. The one sack and I started co writing, we had to systematize. As a former project manager, you can appreciate the fact that if you’re working with other people, you need a system of something like if you’re by yourself, that’s one thing, but anytime you involve a second person or third person, you need a system. And so we kind of informally and organically started to systematize, all of our processes. And at one point, we said to each other, you know, this would be really helpful for other people, for other authors, and we started testing now we do authors on a train, we do world building retreats. And so we started teaching this process, and the response was overwhelming. People were saying, like, wow, that really makes sense. Like, I can use that I understand it. And I kind of had this revelation, this sort of awakening where I was, like, you know, as authors, we try to overcomplicate everything and story just isn’t that complicated. It’s pretty simple. And and yet, we try and make things way more complicated than they have to be. So the The inspiration was okay, let’s simplify this process. And then let’s teach people in a way that they understand it. Because the other thing that I found out and it’s Zach and I saw firsthand was the most prolific, and the best, most talented authors aren’t necessarily the best teachers. Those are two different skill sets. So whether it’s as an author or a welder, or a mechanic, sometimes the people who are really good at what they do, don’t know how they do it. And if you ask them, they’ll go I don’t know I just do it. Like they can’t teach other people how to do it. And there was there is and there was a lot of methodology books and systems out there. And some of them were by brilliant people who really have no… didn’t have the skills to teach other people how to use it. So it really was this idea of Okay, let’s streamline the process. Let’s make it simple. And let’s teach people how to do it and give them the tools that they need.
Sacha Black
Amazing and let’s go ahead Little bit deeper. But obviously without giving you know the entire book away, can you give listeners a bit of an overview of what the three story method is?
J Thorn
Yes, it’s sort of a two pronged approach because what you have is your approaching story at the same level. And scenes are really important. Like if you can’t write a good scene, it doesn’t matter what kind of wonderful world that you build, or any kind of plot that you have a reader picks up and at the end of chapter one, they don’t want to turn the page, nothing else matters. So part of three story method is dealing with three elements at the scene level. And then we come up a level and we look at it from a higher altitude. And we have three general things that we look at from the higher level. So for the global story arc, we’re looking at plot and structure is kind of one level. Then we have genre and theme as another level, or story and then character and world. So you have those sort of three elements. Those are the high level at the scene level. All you have the three elements of conflict, choice and consequence. And really, if if you don’t even want to buy the book, and if you remember nothing else from from this podcast, if you can nail conflict choice and consequence 95% of what you write will be stellar.
Sacha Black
Yeah. And that was actually my favorite section in the book was around conflict choice and consequence. And you have them in a very nice triangle. And but I wonder if we could go a bit deeper specifically on the choice, conflict and consequence and, and, you know, look at how those interplay and what those mean for a writer writing a scene and I guess structuring, like that book as well?
J Thorn
Yes, well, I’ve been working with clients for a number of years now. And it not only in my own work in my co writers work and in clients where the biggest struggle I see from other authors at the scene level is not having a strong enough choice. So if we back up a second, conflict, choice and consequence are built on Aristotle’s idea that stories must have a beginning, a middle and an end, which again, sound everyone’s like, duh, right? But when you sit down to write, you’d be surprised how many scenes get cranked out that are missing one of those three elements, or they don’t have a strong enough one. So if you think about story being all about conflict, like you have to have something happening or you don’t have a story, and again, that sounds super simple, but the choice is the middle element. So the conflict is, in any scene, what pushes the protagonist or the main character out of their normal routine or out of their habit that is your conflict your initial conflict, that should then build to a choice what decision must the character make and your characters must make a decision in every single scene, and then the consequences naturally what follows from that. So the key on the choice is it has to be a question that you plant in the readers mind. And the question has to be, what would I do in this situation? That is what’s going to push a reader to say, well, I want to see what happens. And the way that you do that is you have, you have to, there’s two parts to that, you make that decision extremely difficult. Now, it doesn’t mean the stakes have to be really high every time but the options that they’re facing should be equally good or equally bad. And if you do your choice, right, you can get people arguing, you could get readers arguing over what that character should do. And it could even be dependent on the context. So maybe, maybe a reader would do one thing one time but do the opposite. If the situation was different, and that’s it, that’s the key. You want to make your choice as difficult as possible and your protagonist, because that will be the most interesting to the reader.
Sacha Black
And then obviously, there must always be a consequence for whatever That decision is right. So can you give me an example? I think you use Star Wars quite a lot in the book. Can you give me a worked example of how this conflict choice and consequence plays out? And obviously most people well, I’m assuming most people have seen Star Wars so they’ll they’ll be able to, you know, follow.
J Thorn
I know, we have to give a 1977. If you haven’t seen Star Wars A New Hope yet, you might want hit pause on this. Yeah. I’m gonna spoil it and tell you that Obi Wan Kenobi is killed by Darth Vader. That’s the spoiler. That’s a really pivotal scene not only in in the movie, but in the hero’s journey archetype. And for Luke Skywalker is the protagonist. And I think it’s like it’s a great example of a difficult choice. Now, it has high stakes, not every scene will. But this what happens is, if you all remember from the movie, a Darth Vader and Obi Wan are having their lightsaber duel on in the middle of the Death Star, and Luke along with I think Han Solo might be with them and chewy. They they arrive. And it’s not verbalized. But Luke has a choice, right? He either interferes with what’s happening and gets involved in the conflict. Or he waits and waits it out to see what happens. And if you think about that, it’s an incredibly difficult choice because Obi Wan is his mentor. He’s been training him. But now he’s facing like the most evil villain in the universe. So if Luke, Luke could bring harm to himself or to others, if he interferes, so that that’s one level of consequence. But clearly, Darth Vader is more powerful, stronger. Obi Wan’s an old man, so if Luke does nothing, his mentor’s probably going to die. And if Luke gets involved, he’s also risking Princess Leia and his job is to get laid off the Death Star. Because she’s the hope for the rebellion. So that’s a perfect example of an incredibly difficult choice where you as, as the viewer, you’re like, oh, gosh, what does he do? And it’s kind of cringe worthy. And that’s a perfect example of a difficult choice.
Sacha Black
And the thing that I really gave me a bit of an epiphany is that the consequence needs to change things forever. So you can’t you can’t take a step back.
J Thorn
You can’t undo it.
Sacha Black
Yeah, exactly. You can’t undo it. And so the choice that sorry, the con, I gotta get this in the right order. The conflict, choice, consequence, should be used throughout every scene. Is that right?
J Thorn
That’s correct. Yes.
Sacha Black
So how can writers use this in conjunction with their plotting, let’s say they’re plotting, and how can they you know, what tips are there for making sure that they have enough information and they’re plotting, you know, before they come to the page?
J Thorn
Yeah. In the most simplest form, I would have an outline or a set of story beats. And for every scene, I would write one bullet point for conflict, one for choice, one for consequence. Now I know that you know people who are more Panthers or discovery writers, they, they might want to come to a blank page. But I feel like if you’re writing a 2000 word scene, and you’re putting 10 words down on the page, you’re going to pants 1990 of them. So there’s even if you have just those three things mapped out, there’s still so much room for you in the scene. But at least you know what you’re going for, you know, how the scene is going to start, you know, the decision the characters going to face and then you know the outcome, which will set you up for the next scene. So I would say the very bare minimum, that’s really all you need. And if you do that much, and just and you’re still pantser, I think that’s going to give you just enough structure to get through without, like, locking up or having writer’s block.
Sacha Black
Yeah, and I suppose if there are some true rebels out there who really don’t even want to do that, I suppose they could use it as a check mechanism, when they go back to review each scene to make sure that they have, you know, a conflict beat, a choice beat and a consequence beat.
J Thorn
Yes, you absolutely could do that.
Sacha Black
Um, so what mistakes Do you think authors make when it comes to structure and plotting?
J Thorn
Well, I think if you’re talking specifically about plotting, I think this is a place where you need to be in the Goldilocks zone, I think you need to be moderate. I think you need to be somewhere in the middle I, I find authors who struggle are on the ends of the spectrum, they’re either writing out a 30,000 word outline, and at that point is basically a draft or they they have so little that they don’t know where they’re going. And so I think if you can kind of stay towards the middle and like I said, give yourself give yourself enough that you you know, where the scene is going to begin You know, what the decision is going to be and then how is going to end that’s kind of that’s kind of what you want. So that’s the biggest mistake I see. It’s just being on the on the ends of the spectrum.
Sacha Black
Let’s bring all of this together what tips and tricks do you have for you know structure and or anything else you want to add basically about the three story method and how it can help writers in structuring their stories better.
J Thorn
I think the the simplest thing you can do and it’s completely free if you check out The Career Author podcast, Zach and I, I don’t know if it’ll be wrapped up by the time completely wrapped up by the time this airs, but it’ll be pretty close. I think. We did what we’re calling an influencer series. So we looked at the story methodologies that really influenced us and influence three story method and and that if you listen to those episodes, you’re going to get a nice overview of what those methods are and how they work. And I think that’s a great place to start. So for example, the first influencer episode we did was Aristotle’s poetics. We looked at The Hero’s Journey both Campbell and Vogler’s interpretations, the Virgin’s promise with Kim Hudson and we looked at story by Robert McKee. And those sort of are the basis for three story methods. I would say to people, go listen to those podcast episodes. And that’ll start to kind of whet your appetite for what a story structure can be and how you can use it.
Sacha Black
Yeah, and I’ve listened to the Aristotle one and it made me buy the Aristotle poetics. So cheers for spending my money. Yeah, no, it was excellent. They say, and it was also interesting to see all of the stuff behind it. There is a bit of that in the book as well, but it was interesting to see where all the stuff behind it. Yes, um, okay, well, this is The Rebel the Podcast, so tell me about a time you unleash your inner rebel.
J Thorn
Well, I have to ask if I can tell you about a time I released my outer rebel Would that be okay? Yeah. Okay, you’re gonna love this. My wife makes fun of me all the time. And I’m not saying this works 100% of the time, but it works enough that I keep doing it. Alright, so here’s how you can be a rebel. Anytime you want something, let’s say you want a lower rate for your cell phone, or you want to decrease your cable cost or you want to, you want to get an extra package for your insurance. What you do is you call customer service, and you don’t ask them, you tell them what they’re going to do. thinking it’s no way this is gonna work, and I’m telling you it does. It doesn’t work every time. I perfect example, I was paying like $95 a month for my cable bill and I have like cable and internet. So I called the company and like customer service answers and like yeah, how can we help you? I’m like, let me tell you what you’re gonna do. And this is exactly how I said it. I was like, really upbeat and positive. I’m like, I’m paying so much from for my cable right now. So you’re going to drop it to 65 bucks a month. And she’s like, um, I can ask him like, No, you don’t have to ask just you just gonna go ahead and do it right now. And she’s like, um, hold on a second, and she comes back and she’s like, I found a voucher that will give you you know, whatever it was $35 off. So I’ll apply that to your account. Would that be okay? I’m like, splendid.
Sacha Black
No way, yeah, I am truly speechless.
J Thorn
you have to try it. Now. It’s, um, if you want to work up to it, like you could do it in person. So like, if you go into a coffee shop, and you’re like, let me tell you what you’re gonna do. You’re gonna I’m gonna pay for the small you’re gonna put you’re gonna put it in a large cup. That’s hard to do. And but if you start on the phone, it’s easier to do that pick an account that you’re paying too much money and just call customer service and tell them what they’re going to do and that’s unleashing your outer and your inner rebel.
Sacha Black
My God, there must be like some psychology around the you know the sort of affirmative statements or something where you give somebody no good. I have literally in awe of your rebellious nature.
J Thorn
to you have to be forceful but polite, and you have to be upbeat and positive. So you can’t like scream at them, but you just you were like, let me tell you what you’re gonna do. You get them all pumped up, and they’re like, and they just do it. And I’m telling you it’s happened enough that it’s not a fluke. And not every time but enough that I’m like that works.
Sacha Black
That is like a recipe for wealth domination. I am so impressed like I am taking notes right now. Oh my god, I think this is maybe my favorite rebel story ever. Sorry everyone else.
J Thorn
Well, I you could probably do you know me well enough to know that I don’t like following the rules. I’m kind of a rebel at heart. And so that’s one way you can kind of break me just yeah, call them and tell them. Don’t ask for Permission just tell them what they’re gonna do.
Sacha Black
I love I love it. Yeah, absolutely love it. I am I am literally gonna drop you an email when I’ve done this and be like, yes. Yeah.
J Thorn
Yeah, here’s, here’s where it worked or like, here’s where it didn’t work, but try it.
Sacha Black
Yes. And if any listener would like to also participate in our new game and then please do tweet. Okay, tell listeners where they can find out more about you your books and your podcasts.
J Thorn
Yeah, everything about me is that theauthorlife.com. That’s where I have all my podcasts and information and things like that. And if they’re interested in three story method, we have a landing page up at three story method calm. Amazing.
Sacha Black
And just one more time the names of your podcast Justin and because I will also link to them.
J Thorn
Yes, The Author Life, The Writers Well, The Career Author podcast and Writers Ink.
Sacha Black
Amazing. Thank you so much for your time today. Really, really appreciate it.
J Thorn
Pleasure. I had a blast.
Sacha Black
Yeah, I’m still. Okay. Right. Thank you to all of the patrons supporting the show. If you would like to get early access to all of the episodes, then you can do so by visiting www.patreon.com/SachaBlack and that is Sacha with a C. Thank you very much to everybody listening. I’m Sacha Black. You are listening to J Thorn and this was The Rebel Author Podcast.
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