Hello and welcome back to The Rebel Author Podcast EPISODE 13. Today I am speaking to Joan Dempsey all about how to write diverse characters.
This week’s question is:
Who is your favorite diverse character or what is your favorite diverse book?
Mine is this week’s book recommendation: Dreadnought by April Daniels
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How to Write Diverse Characters
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Episode Transcript
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Sacha Black
Hello and welcome back to The Rebel Author Podcast. Today I am joined by Joan Dempsey winner of the 2017 Maureen Egen Writers Exchange Award from Poets & Writers, and named by Poets & Writers magazine as one of “5 more over 50” writers to watch, Joan Dempsey is the author of the novel, This Is How It Begins, which won the bronze 2018 Independent Publisher Book Award for literary fiction. The novel was also a finalist for a 2018 Lambda Literary Award, 2017 Foreword Indies Book of the Year Award and 2018 Sarton Women’s Book Award. Joan received her MFA degree and teaching certificate in creative writing from Antioch University Los Angeles. Welcome Joan.
Joan Dempsey
Hey, Sacha and everybody really glad to be here.
Sacha Black
Thank you so much for joining us. Joan is absolutely amazing. And I’ve known her for quite a long time now. And Joane was one of the very first people who gave me official critique, editing, feedback and what’s the word objective feedback on my writing and I learned absolutely loads from her. So thank you for that you really set off my writing career on the right journey. So So glad about that.
So can you can you tell me a little bit about your own journey? You’ve been full time writing now for a while. So tell me how you got there. And also about your absolutely amazing what a gazillion award winning book as well.
Joan Dempsey
Yeah, well, thanks for asking and I’m not quite writing full time but I am writing regularly which is fantastic and the not quite writing full time is just because I have to make a living, of course, as we all do. And so one of the things I love to do is work with other writers. So really my entire working life revolves around writing either my own stuff or working with others who are writing. So all of that is fantastic. And you know, really, I started writing fairly late in life, I would say, although I don’t know why because I read books of, you know, a bazillion books as a kid, it was my favorite thing to do. But I took my first writing workshop at Grubs Street Writers in Boston, which is a wonderful organization and they were just getting started at the same time I was getting started. And in the first class in the first workshop, I took character just appeared to me on the page when we were doing a writing exercise and I fell in love with writing fiction. And I really honestly knew in that precise moment that that’s what I wanted to do with my life and
I’ve done lots of other things in my life. My Life and I had been bumping around from this and that, but I knew then that, that that’s where I wanted to focus. So the novel, interestingly, This is How it Begins has been out for two years now, which is sort of shocking for me to see, but, but it’s been going great, you know, great guns for that for that entire two years. In fact, I just did a gig at a library last week and had a whole bunch of women there from this book group that were, you know, thrilled to talk with me about the book. So that’s just really, really gratifying. And I’ve had lots of great feedback from readers and it’s, you know, it’s a, it’s a kick to get a book out into the world and it really is, you know, out of my hands and takes on a life of its own in the hands of readers. So it’s, it’s a total joy.
Sacha Black
I love the character that made it into your novel. Appeared to you in your very first writing session, I think that’s like crazy where the characters come from and that she stayed with you the entire time.
Joan Dempsey
Well, actually, it was a different character that appeared to me. Yeah, it was just that magic of having the character appear which I you know, I used to hear writers talk about that, you know, the magic of that and I thought, Oh, that’s you know, that’s bullshit because you’re in total control and you know, writers write and then I realized, Oh, it’s actually not bullshit it does happen the characters come to you and say, Hey, write my story. And that’s definitely what happened with This is How it Begins the main character really took over that book.
Sacha Black
It’s so funny because I think when you really embrace your creativity, these muses or whatever really do just appear to you I am. So I’m, I’m, well, the next fiction book that I write once I complete this bastard third novel that I’m actually on for about 18 months. Is is a project called The Scent of Death. And it literally now I I cannot explain this to you, but I walked past A lamp post and the entire plot the the all of the characters fell into my head literally in an instant bolt. I cannot explain it. And this thing haunts me. And I’ve now I mentioned this on Instagram once and I absolutely love that people are sending me lamp posts from all over the world. It’s over 100 lamp posts now, but and I even brought a little Lego lamp post which sits on my desk now. It’s like my mascot for this book. But it’s just crazy where these stories come from. Anyway, so nice to see the cat. The the opening of the book is this character leaning leaning against this lamppost. So whenever you launch I’m gonna have to go back there and have a photo with it. But yeah, I love where these stories and these characters come from. It’s crazy.
Joan Dempsey
It is crazy. It’s crazy that that’s, that’s what’s fun about fiction, right? It’s just so exciting.
Sacha Black
And then also when you can then get your readers involved because they You know, there’s some random, what’s the word and I don’t I can’t think of the word. It’s far too late in the evening. But you know, there’s, there’s like a thing, a hook in place, and then, you know, all of a sudden all of these people are completely engaged and sending me really cool pictures. And I’ve got to stop waffling about lamp posts. What is this podcast again?
Okay, right. So we are really here to talk about diversity. And I think in the last well, probably the last couple of years, but perhaps slightly more than that there’s been a huge surge in diverse books. And I particularly write Young Adult and I know that in my genre, I’ve seen an absolute explosion, and and particularly in in diverse books that are getting worldwide acclaim so it just off the top of my head, I can think of Angie Thomas, who wrote The Hate You Give which was an award winning it’s been a movie. It’s been all kinds of things Then also, Adam silvera has also done several LGBT books. So why, why do you think that both LGBT and also, other forms of diverse books are suddenly on the rise? And do you think it’s a trend that’s going to continue?
Joan Dempsey
Yeah, great question. And, you know, I’ve been thinking about this a lot lately and talking with other writer writers about it. And part of what I wonder about is if there’s really a surge now of these books, or if these books have been there, all along, and they’re surging now because of what’s happening in in the culture around the world. I mean, obviously, with social media, social movements have a much bigger platform than they ever used to have. So you know, civil rights, social justice causes really have a way to get out there. And I think I think that people know that and so they’re looking for books that reflect that, you know, we’ve got the the media Hashtag and Black Lives Matter matter hashtag and certainly gay marriage has been a huge deal in the in the last years now legal here in the states in in every in every state.
So I think that it’s I think it’s in zeitgeist, if you will, and I do think it’s going to continue. I don’t you know, most social movements, take a few steps forward a few steps back a few more steps forward, but we’re really, really moving forward on a lot of fronts in a lot of different issues. So I really do think that it will continue. You know, it’s interesting, I heard somebody say the other day that Well, I hope we reach a day where, you know, the characters in books are super diverse, and that’s really common place. And what’s interesting to me about that, is that part of what I think is really compelling about books like The Hate You Give, that you mentioned and other books that are like that is that it It allows was us to explore what it means to be a different kind of person. So the idea of it being common place, almost seems to me like, you know, like, I wonder what will lose if that’s the case. I understand, you know, let’s get rid of bias and bigotry, but certainly not let’s not get rid of diversity and difference because that’s what you know, that’s what makes life rich is to have people who are different from ourselves.
Sacha Black
So interesting. I feel like my mind just imploded thinking about that because nobody’s ever said that to me. And that’s fascinating because I am one of those people that says, You know, I would really love to get to the point in literature where whatever the diverse characteristic is, it is just the part of the character it is it is not the thing in the story. So you know, with Angie Thomas’s The Hate You Give I would love for us to be in a in a world where they were just characters and it wasn’t about necessarily their skin color or their sexuality or that was just part of their characteristic. And but to normalize that, obviously, you’re right. Would we let them lose something because we are we are you know, there is a place for these voices now and that is so magical and powerful and absolutely needed. But yeah, I hadn’t ever really thought about it like that. And there was something else I wanted to pick up but it’s now left my brain. Nevermind.
Joan Dempsey
Well, I will jump in because I think the I would actually agree that it’d be great if we have all kinds of diverse characters who are in stories and that they’re just living their lives. It’s not about the diversity per se. So that I do like so commonplace in that way i think is is terrific. But diversity and difference between people, whoever they are is kind of what what the richness is in life. So
Sacha Black
Yeah that’s the reason I travel because I actually want to learn about the other cultures and the other societies and how they may be, what their festivals are or what their what they eat. And you know, that is part of the fascination of, of traveling and meeting wonderful people from different places and all of that, and I suppose you would lose something. If it was so normalized that I’m just that is so fascinating. I’m going to be thinking about that for days now. It’s almost a philosophical question, you know, where, what, can you go too far in the other in the other direction? I remembered my other point now, that one of the things I was going to say is, I think social media has both made the world very, very small in that, you know, you are probably four and a half thousand miles away from me right now. And yet we are still able to have a conversation. And, and, and also very, very large. In that it has opened up all of these opportunities where anybody, you know, you and I, or somebody in Africa or somebody in China or somebody in Brazil can create their own platform. And that has given everybody the opportunity to have a voice, which I think is so powerful and that is why we’re getting all of these wonderful stories from such diverse, different backgrounds. And so yeah, I although I social media is quite literally a thorn in my side when it comes to procrastination. It is wonderful for what it is, you know, the opportunities that it has created.
Joan Dempsey
Absolutely.
Sacha Black
So you write diverse characters. So could you tell me a little bit about how you approach creating a diverse character? What do you think is an important to ensure that they are realistic as characters?
Joan Dempsey
Yeah, I’d love that question. And You know, as we’re talking about earlier, characters often show up and they show up, not fully formed necessarily, although some do, but they show up and and then I kind of take it from there. So as a for instance, in This is How it Begins, as the book began to unfold, I realized that I was going to be writing to some extent about the Holocaust. And I had frankly steered clear of that because I have no family history of, you know, anything related to the Holocaust. And I kind of had that question about who will Who am I to write about this, but the characters persisted, and I decided to go with that, you know, similarly, my main character is an elderly Polish woman, and I’m not polish and I have no background in that area. And you know, when you write fiction, you’re constantly writing characters who are different from you.
So the way I really approach it is Is this the same for every character and that is I really try very hard to embody my characters I and discovering what makes them tick is really the thing that that drives me to write fiction. It’s really what I love about it. I mean, the the work that I’m working on right now, for instance, I have opportunities to be a firefighter and play hockey, you know, both things I have never done. I have an opportunity to be walking out of prison after having spent 14 years there. As a wrongfully incarcerated person, I have opportunity to be male, female, brown skinned, white skinned. You know, it’s, it’s just fascinating. And what I really do mostly, is try to get inside the body of these characters heart, mind, soul body completely. And in order to do that, I have to do an awful lot of research a lot of times and I have to get outside of myself so that I am not bringing any of my own stuff to the character. One thing I see a lot because I read a lot of manuscripts I see I can tell almost instantly if a character is really the author in disguise. And I can usually tell that because the characters tend to be sort of flat and almost strained and they don’t have a life of their own. And what I’m often advising people is write this character until this character is not anything like you and, and I don’t just mean change the hair color or the gender I mean, they are a living, breathing creature that is separate from yourself. So, embodying characters to me is the key. The other thing I see a lot is that writers often they, they’re seeing their characters more from the outside than from the inside. So I want to experience characters through all of their senses. I want to know what it feels Like in their body, I want to know what they’re smelling, what they’re seeing, etc. And that to me is the way to really bring characters to life.
Sacha Black
Fascinating because I just today I was writing a section about what really is author voice. And I think a lot of the time when we say author voice, we really mean character voice. Because characters were, you know, as you were saying, when when they truly come alive, they have their own voice. And it’s funny because I certainly can still see aspects of myself in in my protagonist in my first series, and actually I’ve kind of come to terms with it, because it was the very first series you know, and most authors do that and find it that is the series that I learned how to write with, but this this, and actually, I was putting this anecdote in the book, I’m writing Now, which was when I go back and I look at the chapters that I’ve written for The Sent of Death, it’s like reading somebody else’s work. I don’t recognize the voice or the words and it’s so detached from me and yet so completely part of me because I, you know, obviously I have written it and as soon as I go to the page, the characters just, you know, write. But it’s in such a way that’s so different from anything that I’ve ever written before. And yet it’s this bizarre phenomenon to look at something that you’ve written and not be able to see yourself but obviously is just a step and at a point in writing, development and also creating real characters I suppose.
Joan Dempsey
And I think you know, that the thing that’s okay, I was just going to jump in and say the that that whole sort of journey man story is very common, where people are writing those first novels and, and really working a lot of stuff out of the out of their system. And you know, the other thing is as a writer you do forget too. You forget what you put on the page. I remember I think I think it was Philip Roth I heard an interview with him and he said something about just don’t ask me about one of his early books. I forgot what he said because that was 50 years ago. I don’t remember if it when I was at this library gig the other night, somebody asked me a question about a really minor character. And I was thinking, Oh, who is that again? And it’s only been two years. I was like, Oh, right, right. I remember.
Sacha Black
I have to reread my prequels before I write the next book. And I I’ve had quite a few people take the piss out of me because if you could see the number of sticky tabs I have in my own book is ridiculous because I just remember fucking thing. I have a 36 page book-bible where I put all of my you know, key names, dates, all of my linguistic things capitalizations, characters, descriptions, the whole works. Do you think I can’t remember any of it? But remembering aside this is feels very different the phenomenon of looking at something and not recognizing it not because I don’t recall writing it just because it just sounds so different. But anyway. And the other thing that I was just going to pick up on is about the universality of emotion. And how irrelevant of, you know, your character’s gender, or your character’s mental health status, or their sexuality or their race or ethnicity, the thing that connects all characters to readers is the emotional journey they go on. And I think that’s, you know, that’s one of the things that makes us human.
Joan Dempsey
Yep, absolutely.
Sacha Black
And so I often hear from writers and I think you’ve alluded to this already a little bit. But from writers who are from less diverse backgrounds, who are desperate to perhaps write or include a diverse character in their story, but they’re afraid of getting it wrong, what would you say to them?
Joan Dempsey
Yeah, you know, that’s that’s such a such an interesting question. I think that I think that people are afraid sometimes to write characters who are different. I think they have heard that old trope, write what you know, which I hate. Because I always feel like sure, I mean, right. Well, you know, but right Wait, you don’t know. I mean, that’s what makes fiction fun. And I believe that as fiction writers, we actually have a responsibility to reveal truth through fiction, no matter what genre you’re writing in. I mean, the the whole the whole thing about fiction is to reveal the human condition and, and I feel like we should be fearless in that, and we should write whatever characters we want to write. As long as we get it right. And what I mean by that is that it’s so important to do your research both primary and secondary. So that if you’re writing a character who is utterly different from you in whatever way that is, that you don’t unwittingly, in search bias that you don’t even know you have. And that’s, that can be pretty easy to do, if you’re not diligent in doing your research. So I really think it’s important that we that do the work and body our characters and you know, in that, in that case, just go for it right, whoever you want to write. I think that’s I think that’s our work as fiction writers is to get inside the hearts and minds of other people.
Sacha Black
And, you know, if we don’t start being brave, we are not going to see this step change, continue and see, you know, this, what’s the word? This this explosion of normalizing diversity, it’s not it’s not going to happen we have to be brave we have to collectively as a author community, and you know, continue to be brave and try things that were afraid of I was on a podcast the other day talking about fear and how there’s different types of fear and some fear you have to lean into and some is awful fear and, and, and but also more than anything that I have this really bad habit or whatever, I’m afraid or something I have to absolutely do it just to prove to myself that I can. To any author out there who is afraid of writing a character but you have a fascinating character who’s from a diverse background, just do it. Listen to both of us and and, you know, hear us roar. Go away and writecha character. What do you think about sensitivity readers? So I haven’t ever used one. But I do know that they’re becoming more and more popular. So I’d be curious as to what you think about them.
Joan Dempsey
Yeah, definitely. And it’s a it’s actually a perfect segue from what we’re just talking about, and really gets to the heart of me saying, you know, do the research and get get it right. Because what we don’t want to do is get it wrong. And we do, whether we know it or not, we all carry around unconscious bias, about whatever it might be, that is unknown to us, whatever person or thing you know, we just, we just do, it’s part of the human condition. And the idea of having a sensitivity reader is to bring someone in who can tell you if that unconscious bias has shown up on the page. It’s interesting. I have a Facebook group that I raised this year question in just recently asking if people have used sensitivity readers and what was fascinating to me is that there were a lot of people who immediately assume that a sensitivity reader was to come in and say you must be politically correct on whatever, you know, issue was arising and the writing. And that really isn’t what it’s about what it’s about is not not being politically correct. But making sure that what you are portraying from a character’s point of view is what that character in the real world would actually be doing. So it really is looking for those, those unconscious biases that that might end up on the page that you don’t know are there. So I personally I’m excited about the fact that sensitivity sensitivity readers have come on the scene. I think it’s fairly recent phenomenon at least I’d only I’ve only heard about it for the last couple of years and I am absolutely planning to use at least one if not several sensitivity readers. When my when the book I’m working on now is is finished. You know the even before thinking about a sensitivity reader writers have readers who read their work. And the reason we do that is because we don’t see everything that’s on the page. And as a for instance, in my last book, there was a fair amount of pretty complex psychology with the characters. And I had a friend who is also a writer and also a psychologist read the book through that lens. So sensitive sensitivity reader is the same sort of person, you know, you want somebody who can read your work with a certain kind of lens and tell you if you’re getting it right. So I think it’s terrific.
Sacha Black
And I think the only other thing that I would just add to that is that I know you said you might use one you might use several but I think using several is almost sensible in a way because, you know, I am a technically a lesbian woman, I’m married to a woman, but my experience and, and my biases and you know experience of being a gay woman will be very different to anybody else’s experience. So where I may pick up on things that are culturally incorrect or offensive. There might be a something that isn’t so one of the things that is very interesting. I have a friend who is, I think 25 years older than me, and she is also a gay woman. And for her, the use of the word dyke is very commonplace. It’s a word that you know, back when she was like younger, was, you know, prolifically used and they embraced it and they owned the word whereas for somebody my generation, it’s slightly more offensive. So I think that you were we know whether you are writing African American characters, whether you’re writing Chinese characters, whether you’re writing transgender characters, I think it’s important to get, you know, a couple of sensitivity readers at least from from the same background, but with different experiences and different you know, life well life experiences, I suppose, because there’s always a balance somewhere in the middle isn’t there to find what is what is not saying the truth? No, that doesn’t make sense. You know, there’s a balance between being too overly correct, and trying not to offend anybody, and then offending everybody because you’re not bringing a truth to the page. Does that make sense?
Joan Dempsey
Yes, it does make sense and, you know, certainly we should in fiction, I believe the character is the character and if the character is offensive, then so be it. And, again, getting it right for whichever writing is is really key. And, you know, I think one of the things, I totally agree with you by the way that getting more than one sensitivity reader is a good idea. And it’s interesting because there are people out there who are, who are specifically sensitivity readers, that’s what they do, and they’re trained to look for certain things. So, I would be looking for somebody who’s more professionally involved, if you will, with the issues of diversity than just a lay reader who belongs to a certain category. You know, I would hate it if somebody came to me and said, would you read this and give me your gay perspective? I would probably say, uh, probably not. I don’t think I would do that. You know, you have to you have to find the right readers.
Sacha Black
And if you ever find sensitivity readers, please let me know. Because I have been hunting. There was a website dedicated to sensitivity readers and it seems to have gone, the website being shut down now. You’re right. There are people out there who are trained specifically to do that, but I have no idea how to find them. And I’ve it’s actually been a question in one of my Facebook groups recently. So yeah, if you find them, let me know.
Joan Dempsey
Okay, well do.
Sacha Black
Okay, let’s segue for a moment into dialogue. And we’re both editors, and you also run online courses and first of all would you like to tell us about your courses?
Joan Dempsey
Yeah, well, you know, it’s interesting. I do have I have been running online courses for years. There are two running right now. One is both master classes. One is writing great dialogue and the other one is self editing for writers. And I’m actually beginning to move away from that because I have been doing it for so long. But I love absolutely love, love, love dialogue. It’s my my favorite thing. Well, I mean, there’s so many favorite things, but it’s one of the things that I absolutely love about it and the dialogue class and probably that’s why of all the classes I’ve ever taught the dialogue class seems to be the, the most popular one and I think my, my love for dialogue really shows through that.
Sacha Black
I have grown to love dialgoue. Well I’ve grown to love it. Now. I’m more or less there with my understanding of the punctuation which is just… my grammar anyway, no, this is all about grammar. Okay, so I know from having done a lot of editing that and also just talking to writers, that dialogue tends to be a bit of a sticking point. What are the common mistakes that you you see with dialogue and what quick tips and tricks do you have for authors to write better dialogue?
Joan Dempsey
Yeah, well, there are, there are, I would say a number of common mistakes that I see pretty routinely. So I I’ll share those with you. The first one is that people tend to use too many dialogue tags and a dialogue tag is simply you know, the said he should he said, she said, so I see people using far too many tags when they’re not necessarily necessary. A dialogue tag really should only be used. If it’s the only way for the reader to understand who it is who’s speaking if, if the reader can understand who’s speaking without that tag, then absolutely don’t use it. The other thing that’s related to that is that and this is a style thing. We are living in a time where the style is to be used tags as minimally as possible. Don’t stray beyond said and asked that you know that’s that’s kind of the the thing right now is is the minimal look but of course in in earlier days there were all kinds of flowery words that you could use as a dialogue tag and so I typically tend to steer people clear of those and also not to use tags of things like hello he laughed or Hello he hissed you know or Hello he groaned. These are not these are not ways to speak so those are actually called said book isms. I don’t know where that comes from, but that’s what they’re called. And those should be avoided at all costs. So too many dialogue tags and using using non speech tags is one of the one of the common mistakes I see.
Another one on the flip side is and it seems to vary from writer to writer some people don’t give enough tags. And again, the same, the same idea applies, which is that as long as the reader can tell what’s being said without a tag go without a tag. But if you’re reading a string of dialogue, and you think I have no idea who said that, then that means you’re not doing enough tagging.
And the final thing that I see with dialogue, a fair amount, especially with newer writers is that characters voices all sound the same, that there is, there’s no differentiation between them. The dialogue is sort of flat and dull and boring. And that’s really the depth now when it comes to fiction. So much like I was saying before about embodying your character in order to get that character right. That’s really my best tip for for dialogue as well embody those characters, get to know them fully, so that you can begin to hear their voices. Research comes into play here, you know, where’s your character from research? Get online. Listen to people who talk, you know who are in that same place and listen to them talk. And the final thing I would say is always read your stuff out loud, read it out loud to yourself, read the dialogue out loud, you can hear more than you can see. reading out loud is is really key for getting dialogue, right.
Sacha Black
Yeah, so many amazing tips that I’m like, which one do I talk about, but I gotta be selfish and talk about my pet hate first. I know, we’ve spoken about this before but I have a deep seated hatred of one particular method of dialogue tagging, so I don’t know if you have a preference but do you tend to use said Sally or Sally said
Joan Dempsey
yeah, I do remember talking about this before? You were very adamant about one way or the other and and you know, honestly, for me, for me I would never limit myself to Sally said or said Sally. I typically if I’m, if I am trying to figure out which one I should do, that’s where reading out loud comes in handy. I’ll read it aloud and sometimes Sally said sounds perfectly right and sometimes said Sally says perfectly right. There isn’t a rule about doing it one way or the other.
Sacha Black
There’s no rule but one way is wrong.
Joan Dempsey
There is no rule but Sasha says,
Sacha Black
Joking everybody I’ll only hunt you down if you do it wrong. No I am joking, there isn’t a rule. And No, and I think you make a really good point that actually it is about the flow of the sentence and you aren’t quite right sometimes, you know, either if the other way is fine. However, my justification calm myself. My justification for preparing Sally said is because the purpose of a dialogue tag is to identify the reader. And the fastest way you identify the reader, TUT the speaker, and the fastest way you identify the speaker is by identifying them first, which is to use their name first. So for me, I think a lot logic dictates that it should be that way around. But you are right, and you know, sometimes it does just sound naturally better. The other way around, and, and yeah, and
Joan Dempsey
so one thing a reader can probably get through the word said to get through, he was speaking. And second of all, I would say that one thing I do see fairly often is an awfully long paragraph of dialogue and then the comma at the end, said, Sally said at the end and that does not work. That’s when I would say yeah, put the speakers up in that first line, instead of going an entire paragraph and then putting the tag at the very end, because nobody knows who’s saying what, until the very end. So people know very quickly who’s speaking.
Sacha Black
Yeah, and I think it. I mean, you don’t want to long chunks of dialogue anyway, because naturally people interrupt each other and so you know it. Anyway, that’s a whole nother conversation, right? The differentiation was something I was going to pick up on. And, you know, for for those of you who are struggling to think of how you would differentiate one I just wanted to give one very quick, easy example is contractions. And so for somebody, let’s say you have a very posh British person, you know, from 100 years ago, they are much more likely to say things like, Oh, I cannot abide going to the shops today or something, you know, whereas somebody today might They can’t go to the shops today, you know?
Joan Dempsey
Right. Right, right.
Sacha Black
One very quick way to differentiate instead of saying I cannot you say, I can’t. Yeah. Ooh, I’m getting all voice overy here, I’m about to embody some characters. So, contractions is one easy way, but just you know, create a character bucket and for words that your character might say more often than somebody else. Do they use loads of flowery metaphors, or do they always interrupt themselves or are they do they go on tangents or there are lots of ways to create differentiation. The last thing that I was going to say is about you were talking about the trying not to use anything other than said or asked, and, and, if you write dialogue with enough clarity then the tone of what you’re saying should be clear anyway clear enough that you then don’t need to say she chortled or.
Joan Dempsey
Right. Right, exactly.
Sacha Black
Okay, so you also have a course on self-editing. So this same question really quick tips or tricks do you have for writers on self editing? Or what are the most common mistakes you see?
Joan Dempsey
Sure. One of the things that I see fairly often is, writers will come to me and they tend to have this idea that once their first draft is done, they’re done. It’s always fascinating to me to hear people say, Oh, I thought I was done when I did that first draft. And you hear that a fair amount after November and NaNoWriMo. When people have cranked out it cranked out a draft. So So I guess I would just say know that your first draft will never be your final draft. It just doesn’t work that way. The other thing I see an awful lot is that and this is kind of in the same same frame is is people believing that they have to write a shitty first draft that they have to just crank something out from start to finish and that it’s not okay to revise or edit as you go along. And when I tell people you know what if it works for you to revise or edit as you go, then by all means, do that I personally write that way. I revise like crazy. So by the time I get to the end of my, you know, suppose it first draft, it’s really more like an 11th or 12th draft. So when I tell people you can do that, that I often hear people say, Oh, I’m so relieved to hear that I thought that there was something wrong with me that I couldn’t write a shitty first draft. So I’m a big proponent of what works for you, works for you, and you should do that.
So other things that I see more specific things is that in the macro realm, and the big picture realm, what I see an awful lot is that people forget to put in settings like specific settings and the time when something is happening, readers really need to be grounded in time and space. When they are reading fiction, they need to feel like they’re there at home. Like they’re grounded, like they can be comfortable. And if you don’t put the characters in a specific setting, and you have no idea what time it is, readers tend to get lost. And it’s just like a bunch of talking heads on the page. So, so it’s fascinating to me how many people do not write actual scenes and put their characters in actual scenes, they just have them talking to each other. So that one is huge settings and also getting the time right, you know, really just simple time of day, that that kind of stuff really helps readers.
Sacha Black
I love that you mentioned that because that was one of the sections that I write today because I’m right so I’m right A book called the anatomy of prose. That was one of the things that I read about today, I actually add a third thing into that. And I always say point of view. So for those who are writing multiple viewpoint stories, I think it’s time space and head to anchor a scene and I had to, so I took an excerpt from the beginning the opening of one of my chapters, and then I had to write it unanchored. It was so hard.
It was like, I literally spent about 40 minutes trying to anchor this chapter. Like oh my god. Once you know how to do it. This is the thing with many I always find with these, like writing craft development leads once you know how to do something, you forget how not to do it, so to speak. So you taught me about filtering, and so I now don’t know how to not… No, wait, you know what I mean?
Joan Dempsey
I do.
Sacha Black
I do know I do it. When I was explaining what filtering was in the book, I was like, how do I go back and do this again? So it’s Yeah, I think Yeah. Anyway, it’s it’s amazing this journey that we that we go on and all that, you just never stopped learning I can’t believe.
Joan Dempsey
Right, right,
Sacha Black
I can’t believe how you can become a master something and still be a complete beginner.
Joan Dempsey
Well that’s you know, that’s another thing that I absolutely love about writing is that it is a lifelong learning journey. You know, all you have to do is read the body of work of somebody who’s been writing for years and years and you can see how that writing changes over time and, and that continual learning and just perfecting the craft and, you know, writing really is all about the journey, right? There’s never any getting there. It’s just about enjoying the learning and the mastery along the way. That’s that’s what makes it fabulous. Yeah,
Sacha Black
yeah. Okay. This is my favorite question. This is The Rebel Author podcast. So tell me about the time you unleash your inner rebel.
Joan Dempsey
Yes. Good one. Well, I think the I would say I’ve done that numerous times in my life. I am somebody who likes to mix things up. And if things get a little too comfortable or boring, then it’s time to make change. So, but the one that’s most related to writing that’s most recent is probably, I don’t know, maybe four or five years ago, it might be longer. I’m not sure now, but I decided to quit my job basically, and insist on embracing my writer self. This was very controversial in my, in my family and my primary relationship, it really rocked the boat. And, and I knew that I had to do it anyway. I mean, I knew it would rock the boat. I knew my partner would be afraid and have some some fears around me quitting my job, my income producing job in order to really focus on writing. But I also knew that if I didn’t do it, I would regret it probably for the rest of my life. So I decided no, I’m going to take the leap. I’m going to go for it, arrange for me to do that for a year and see how it flew. And we’ve never looked back. So totally.
Sacha Black
I recently hit six months of having left my job. And I think before I left I had one type of fear that I would never be able to leave and it’s a deep seated What if I’m poor? What if I’m right if I fail, what if and it’s such a crushing fear? But yes, left the field changes, so on I am no longer afraid of, you know, what if I don’t have any money because I can just do something else to money. And but that is such a different mindset. And it I can’t, I don’t really know I and I’m trying really because I want to record and preserve this journey that I’m on and the mindset shifts that I’m going through. But it’s so. So it is life changing, there is no way to express it explain the shift in mindset, from before to after. It’s almost like, you know, people tell you what being a parent is going to be like, nobody can tell you what being a parent is going to be like until you have a child like it is that level of radical brain chemistry change. Yes, in so it’s so fascinating that you know, so many of us, actually never look back. And that is the one fear that we all hold before we leave. What if I leave my job and I can’t afford to live or I have to go back? And actually, you don’t go back? Because you find other ways? Because going back would be a fate worse than death.
Joan Dempsey
That’s right. Well, you know, it’s really true that that I love the saying what you focus on grows, what you think about expands and what you dwell on determines your destiny. And it’s really true. So if you make a switch and you put your mind to something new, then that’s what happens. You develop you, you you determine your own destiny instead of letting fear keep you in a place that you don’t want to be.
Sacha Black
And I think that first jump that first leap of faith on leaving your job is the hardest leap to do a number of leaps. Since the Leaving all in a rapid, six month period I’ve had to do very what felt like as significant jumps. But mentally they were that much easier because I’ve made the first leap. Oh, I don’t know if you can hear. But we have fireworks this evening. I know. Everybody’s blowing up fireworks. Don’t you know we’re recording a podcast. I don’t even know what I was saying. Yes, no. So I think that first leap of faith is is the hardest one. And then after that, you you know, it’s like, it’s like training. It’s like developing it writing. It gets easier to make the leaps of faith, the more you do them.
Joan Dempsey
Absolutely. I totally agree.
Sacha Black
And okay, I think that fireworks are going to continue. That’s a wrap it up here. And where can listeners find out more about you?
Joan Dempsey
I can be found at www.joandempsey.com and when you get there, take a look for a tab that says giveaway because every month I do a giveaway of my novel. This is how it begins plus a $20, Amazon gift card and or $20 cheque to buy even more books. So take a look for the giveaway tab at Joandempsey.com.
Sacha Black
Amazing. Thank you. Thank you so much for your
Joan Dempsey
time today. Oh, my pleasure.
Sacha Black
And thank you to everybody supporting the show on Patreon. If you would like to get early access to all of the episodes as well as bonus material, you can do so by visiting www.patreon.com/SachaBlack and that is Sacha with a C. So thank you very much to everybody listening. I am Sacha Black. You are listening to Joan Dempsey, and this was The Rebel Author Podcast
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